I have followed some of the discussions in CamDisc and KI-Media concerning the invitation given to Deputy Prime Minister Sok An. An exchange worth sharing is one between Jayakhmer and M. Preuk. There may be other notable exchange but I do not read everything and may have missed it. Because of my feeling on the issue, I have a bias toward one that I agree with as it expresses what I would have said and more, but both offers some interesting points.
Jayakhmer began this discussion with a piece called:
Cambodia Town Should be a Neutral Place for All Khmer
Jayakhmer wrote:
Energy has been wasted on an issue that should be a non-issue. I have listened to both sides of the arguments about whether or not Deputy Prime Minister Sok An should be invited to be part of the Khmer Town New Year celebration.
Let me first acknowledge that from an outsider’s perspective, I may be looking at the forest while community members in Long Beach look at the tree. I am looking at a broader picture as a Khmer Community while some in Long Beach look at individuals.
I understand that we, Khmer, are political creatures. This kind of events, it is expected that there will be people who are trying to score unnecessary political points. That would be a wrong thing to do on both sides.
Cambodia Town should be a neutral place for all Khmer. It means that all Khmer dignitaries should be welcomed because the town is a place where members of the community belong to diverse political groups. This means Cambodia Town should welcome not only the government members but also any political leader from any political parties.
Not all CPP members are corrupted. If we want change, we need to develop a dialogue between all political parties especially those who are in power. This does not mean you have to compromise on your principle. It simply means you are willing to engage in order to find common ground on issues that benefit Khmer people, a community and a nation.
Without knowing all the sensitive issues in Long Beach, my first impression of the spat is that the community is narrow minded and short sighted.
Why couldn’t Cambodia Town be a place where political inclusiveness is promoted? Why couldn’t Long Beach be a beacon of democracy where diverse members of the community are encouraged in vibrant debates that promote positive principles and policies that benefit member of the community here and benefit Khmer in Cambodia?
If Long Beach is indicative of a typical Cambodian Community, we are in bigger trouble than we thought. This tells me that the foreigners are not the predicament of Cambodia’s unity and its progress. It is our divisiveness that continues to weaken us a community and as a nation.
If we, Khmer, cannot find a common ground to resolve our issues in a civilized and effective manner, we are the worse enemy to ourselves.
M. Preuk wrote:
Dear Jay,
In short, all that I can reply to you now is: if only you knew what is behind the wheeling and dealing! It’s one thing to live by the book, it’s something else when it comes to dirty politics. When did you ever see the CPP play by the book?
Furthermore, if you think Cambodia Town should be neutral, then why welcome any politicians at all? Were there any neutral politicians in the world? They all fight for one cause or another.
Beacon of democracy with the CPP? I’m sorry, no such thing ever happened in reality yet. The CPP may talk about it, but when it comes to concrete realizations, it’s Z-E-R-O!
It’s fine that you tell the Cambodian community in Long Beach did not do this thing or that thing, these people will always listen to you, whether they agree or not is another issue. Did you even try to do the same to the CPP? Maybe, you may want to know their reactions, let alone if they acknowledge your comments to them.
If you think Long Beach, and Cambodia Town is not inclusive, you may want to learn also that Anaheim street is the only street in the US where the CPP flags fly in the USA. No other political party holds this privilege. In that sense, yes Long Beach is not inclusive, because only the CPP can do it.
Please wake up before it’s too late. Furthermore, unity does not necessarily foster democracy, if anything, it mainly fosters an agreement between a group of people, and thereby the imposition of their ideas and wills onto others. In every society, dissent is the only way to build a strong society, it would be very sad to see a society made out of a herd of sheeps. Therefore, I am wondering if you are mixing up disunity and dissent by any chance?
I apologize if I may sound harsh to you, but I couldn’t take it anymore this apologetic attitude, this acceptance to kowtow to one side. Elsewhere, I read with disgust, this morning, a Khmer saying that only, us, Khmer hate the Yuons and the Siems, not vice-versa. I am seething with outrage! Enough is enough!
Just my seething and disagreeing janitor observations,
MP
Jayakhmer wrote:
Dear M Preuk,
You do not sound harsh at all. You have raised legitimate issues. In fact, I am grateful that said what you said.
The fundamental issue here is not new. Similar issue has occurred at the national level. The debate here is whether to engage or not to engage. The U.S. asked this very same question in regard to communist countries such as China or Vietnam in the past.
I have admitted that I do not know all the sensitive issue in Long Beach. What the community decides is up to the community. I am simply offering an outsider perspective - a perspective from someone who has no stake in this.
The reality is none of us can change CPP only CPP can change CPP. My point is Long Beach is not Cambodia. Members of the community can vote and change thing is the city level. The community should establish a strong relationship with the City Council to make sure that no one political party can hijack the town.
This is why I advocated for neutrality.
To effect change political participation is needed. This is why I think it makes sense to engage.
Assuming that the community’s excluding or rejecting CPP’s present in New Year is successful.
One side may win a moral victory.
Do you think that this moral victory will effect any change in the future if change is our goal?
With highest respect,
Jay
M. Pruek wrote:
Dear Jay,
Thank you for the favor of your reply.
Regarding your question: “Do you think that this moral victory will effect any change in the future if change is our goal?”
Let me simply put it this way: “a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step”. Unless, we are willing to take this single step, we are forever bound to the slavery mentality.
I admit: I don’t have a full view of the forest; I can barely see the grass that grows above my head, let alone the US-Chinese-Vietnamese relationship. But, I am willing to venture out and take the first step. When faced with an unsurmountable problem, we have two choices: (1) avoid it at all cost, or (2) solve it by dividing it into smaller problems where we can manage each issue (ie, divide and conquer). Since Meeng Ry would agree that I am no more than a chicken egg who would have to face a giant rock, I have no choice but to adopt the divide and conquer methodology.
But, more importantly, let me ask you back: “if you cannot secure a moral victory today, what will happen tomorrow? What else will they come up with? Yesteryear was the 17 April day parade, this year is the presence of Sok An, next year do we have to carry Hun Sen’s portrait along Anaheim street? Shall we also have a parade on 07 January as well?”
Best regards,
MP
Jayakhmer wrote:
Dear M Preuk,
Losing a battle does not mean losing a war. Those who appear to be winning now does not mean they are the victors in the future. For now, we should spend time building the foundation of democracy. Stick to the principles and concentrate on issues that impact the lives of our people. If they want to carry the prime minister’s picture on the street, let them do it. You know what kind of people they are already. As long as there is progress toward democracy even that change is incremental, we are winning already. There is a constitutional amendment to separate politics and administration right now. That stuff is much more important than the who ride on the car in the street in Long Beach in the parade.
We should be O.K.. Just be patient.
Jay
M. Preuk wrote:
Dear Jay,
I find your assertion below rather intriguing, if not incomprehensible to my poor mind. On one hand you claim: “we should spend time building the foundation of democracy”, and on the other hand, when you are presented with the opportunity of a case (opposition to Sok An’s visit to Cambodia Town) where you can showcase how democracy should work, yet you tell us, why bother?
As I admitted in all our previous conversations, my understanding of the world views is rather limited, if not completely dim, so to speak. But, do tell me, please, how are we going to build the foundation of democracy, merely by studying books, theories, and philosophies? Somewhere, I heard someone once said that the foundation of democracy must be built one block at a time, are you preaching that we shouldn’t do this? Should we just pour a truck load of concrete to build this foundation, while knowing full well that we don’t have a truckload of cement and all that we have in our hands are merely concrete blocks?
Just be patient you said? Sorry, I lost all my patience, and I also lost my country as well. When Sihanouk was in power, we were told: just stay quiet and don’t do anything. When Lon Nol was in power, we were told: things will work out, just wait and see. When Pol Pot came to power, we were told: for sure things will change, stay still and let them work. When the Vietnamese invaded and installed the puppet regime which remains until now, we were told: Hey it’s no longer your country, don’t do anything. When the 1991 Paris Accord was signed, we were told: Change is here, just wait and see. When Hun Sen couldn’t win the election, we were told: Let him have some power, and things will go back to normal, just sit tight. When Hun Sen cheated the election twice, he told us: you can say anything you want as long as you don’t do anything against me, just shut up. This is how bleak the situation is.
What is the foundation of democracy if you don’t allow people to express their feelings, their dissenting opinions? Where do we start? Do tell us!?!?
Remember “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” But what, me worry?
Puzzled in the cybernetic world,
MP
Jayakhmer wrote:
Dear M Preuk
I am sorry I mention that notion without clarifying it. Building the foundation of democracy, I am referring to a notion of mutual respect even with your opponents. Currently, as you already noticed here in America when candidates debate, they are passionate about their issues but at the end they always shake hands.
This notion is, in my mind, consistent with idea of inclusiveness and requires participation from all. Protesting against the visit of a high-ranking CPP member may be seen as an act of democracy.
Is this a mean to what end?
What is the true motivation behind the protest?
Well, from our discussion includes all our friends in this forum, thus far, let us say we don’t want be seen as condoning the regime that governs the country in such and such way. We all read the news, the issues but well known to all of us.
CPP knows that they have supporters and they also know that there are those that do not support them. That is a given. Protesting, in my thinking, only reinforces what they already knew.
If true representatives of the community (obviously not those who control the decision to invite Dep. PM Sok An) have an opportunity to have a heart to heart discussion on real issues with the visitor, we may achieve our goal of impact changes better than protesting. That is the kind of democracy I am talking about.
It is free in this country to protest. But not all protesting produces result. I used to be a protester myself. I know what I am talking about.
You need strategy to win and to produce result.
Again, I am sorry if I confused you.
Respect as always,
Jay
M. Preuk wrote:
Dear Jay,
No apologies accepted simply because you don’t owe me any apology.
To reply point by point on the issues you raised:
1- Currently, as you already noticed here in America when candidates debate, they are passionate about their issues but at the end they always shake hands.
It’s true that in the US and elsewhere in the world, candidates shake their hands after a debate. In Srok Khmer, the situation is not as such. For one thing, in the US, Europe, and major Asian democracies, after these politicians shake their hands and leave the stage, they don’t go around and try to kill their opponents, nor do they go around and kill the supporters of the opposing parties, as was and is the case in Cambodia. Furthermore, none of them go around telling their opponents to have coffins ready either.
2- idea of inclusiveness and requires participation from all Jay, on this issue, you are a dime short and more than 2 decades late. Since you read all the news also, you must have seen the photo of Sihanouk shaking hands with Hun Sen in Fères-en-Tardenois, right? When was it taken? 1987 to be exact. Sihanouk was the very first one to shake Hun Sen’s hand. I hope that he did so in order to bring peace and rebirth to Cambodia. In reality what happens? Since you said that you read the news and know the issues well, I wouldn’t waste your time anymore with my tirade on this topic. Suffice it to say that things did not turn out to be as rosy as Sihanouk would have thought, because if it is, we wouldn’t be discussing about we are discussing right now.
3- discussion on real issues with the visitor
Jay, let’s not delve into too complicated issues, take for example a basic case of salaries for teachers. Since you read all the news, you know full well how low their salaries are, and you must have heard how loudly they shouted on this issue. Anything happened yet? Now, more recently, when people want to protest about border agreements with Vietnam, you know what happened without me providing any details right? The bottom line, Jay, nobody will be able to tell anything to these former comrades.
4- It is free in this country to protest. But not all protesting produces result.
Unless, somewhere along the way you became blindsided, do you know why these commies want so much to be on the world stage? The short and simple answer to this question is simply: recognition and respectability. Remember, some of these thugs were involved in killings and such, by now, they want to gain a certain degree of respectability so they and their relatives can move freely anywhere they feel like doing so. To acknowledge them is to give them that degree of respectability that they so much desire.
5- You need strategy to win and to produce result.
After reading all the above, need I tell you more?
Faithfully yours,
MP
Jayakhmer wrote:
Dear M Preuk,
I truly thank you for sharing your perspective on this issue. Your perspective must be shared by a good segment of our society. I learned a great deal from this discussion.
This leads me to thinking about the challenges my generation will face. I have a profound respect for those who share your perspective. My challenge is still how do people of my generation effect changes for our nation to solve the problems that are
monumental to the survival of our nation.
How do we get people of different persuasions to sit at the same table and truly engage and come out with policies that are palatable to all?
To rid off any one group or is certainly unreal and is not an option.
The reality is there will be people who support CPP; there will be people who support the former monarch; there will be people who love to get of the monarchy all together; there will be people who want to move Cambodia toward democracy as quickly as possible; and there will be people who do not care as long as they have the opportunity to make money every is O.K. with them.
I have to work hard with my peers on this issue.
For now let us agree to disagree.
Thank you,
Jay
M. Preuk wrote:
Dear Jay,
In closing, if you may, let me say that if I made you think that I was trying to convince you to agree with me, then, I failed miserably my task.
All that I wanted to tell you is simply that: all that shine is not necessarily gold, all that glitter is not necessarily diamond. There is always 2 sides to a coin. But, please, when you decide to take the road you are taking, I urge you to look deeper into what happened in Vietnam, how the communists changed and twisted their stances, even if they signed on agreements that state otherwise. Why Vietnam? Simply because that’s exactly how the Hun Sen takes after. As Sihanouk confessed himself, he also was betrayed by his so-called former brother-in-arm: he thought he helped them so that he could get their help back, but his wish was not reciprocated.
As you have noted yourself, the situation in Cambodia is very difficult to come to a so-called grand “national reconciliation”. Sihanouk tried it, it didn’t work out. Will Hun Sen try it? If he wanted to, he could have done it long ago, but now that he is entrenched in power, there is no reason for him to let it slip out of his hand. He learned his lesson in 1993 once already.
I laud your effort to attempt what you have described, honestly speaking, I think you would be better off if all the older generations: those who survived the KR, those who saw the resistance war against the Viets, are all gone and start out fresh without any of these bad old memories. For otherwise, you will just be reinventing the same wheel all over again and again, in that case, why not test your ideas with others first, use them as your sounding board, you never know. Do keep in mind also, that our exchange is purely theoretical; the reality in the terrain is far remote from what we are discussing here.
It’s been a pleasure exchanging opinions with you, for once, I didn’t have to confront a barrage of curses. For that, I sincerely thank you for your civility.
Good luck to you in your endeavor,
M. Preuk
Jaykhmer wrote:
Der M Preuk,
Thank you sir for your kind advice. If the Khmer Rouge did murder my father, he probably tells me what you just said. I would take his advice to heart as I take yours. It has been wonderful discussing this issue with you.
Again, thank you.
Respect as always,
Jay